My thoughts on current state of BM talents and builds

Dire Frenzy vs. Stomp

There seemed to be a renewed interest in Dire Frenzy lately, although I have no idea why. Thinking I may have missed something along the way, I decided the best thing, as always, was to test it for myself and see.

After extensive testing on RAID dummies, and repeated queuing for the ‘NightSpire’ LFR, I still don’t get it. Even on relative shorter fights, Dire Frenzy is simply not better than Stomp. I tested Dire Frenzy in combination with Dire Stable and Way of the Cobra, One with the Pack and Bestial Fury, although I didn’t test it with Aspect of the Beast.

The main reason I didn’t test it with AOTB is that it requires a different macro configuration as the logic is different for optimizing damage using AOTB. I shodl also mention that currently, my base stats are:

Crit - 49%
Haste - 22%
Mastery - 76%
Vers - 13%

If you are running a super high Mastery build (over 100%), this may make a difference. I personally think such extremes are a mistake for a couple of reasons. First, if they change the game and nerf Mastery or redo set bonuses that highlight non-max Mastery builds, you are kinda screwed. Secondly, and more importantly, you don’t always have control over what upgrades you get. Its difficult enough to figure out if a piece is an upgrade or not, without further complicating it by deciding that you want to artificially inflate Mastery to some extreme value. I have tested extreme Mastery builds myself and even if they are better in a very specific and niche way, it isn’t a huge improvement.

As hunters (and really any class) we have a choice about how we want to build our characters. I am a raider, so I am interested in a couple of key components:

1 - Must do great damage over long (10 minute) fights
2 - Must have great burst damage potential

Obviously, we will apply burst damage at the start of every fight, since all of our cool-downs are available. But I am more talking about the ability to plan for a burst phase of damage, in situations in which a boss is only able to be damaged for short periods of time. BM Burst has 2 facets. One is cool-downs such as Aspect of the Wild and Titan’s Thunder along with racial like Blood Fury for Orcs. The other is the recurring Bestial Wrath cool-down. When they can be combined, it provides the highest burst, but each provides a smaller burst phase independently of the other.

I don’t attempt to optimize for 10 second fights, or 30 second fights, or even 2 minute fights. I suppose pretty much any build or macro could compete with very short duration fights like this. Again, I personally optimize for long duration fights. A build that provides super high burst, but winds up with lousy overall DPS after 5+ minutes is just not what I am after.

In any event, based on all that, I am forced to conclude that Dire Frenzy, while competitive, is not a DPS increase, even on single target fights. Against multiple targets, Dire Frenzy is a significant DPS loss. Therefor, I use and recommend Stomp as the go to talent instead of Dire Frenzy. If you disagree, peachy. Not to sound like a dick (but I will anyway), but I honestly don’t care what you choose to do. However, I would be interested in a detailed and compelling argument in favor of using Dire Frenzy as I have not seen or heard one yet.

Way of the Cobra vs. Dire Stable

With regard to WOTC and DS, one could go either way. It really depends on so many factors that it is hard to make a definitive call on which is better. Things like haste, the focus cost of Cobra Shot (lowered by using legendary belt and Slithering Serpents trait) can dramatically impact the overall opportunity cost of using WOTC or DS. In my extensive testing, I personally find that I simply do better using Dire Stable. First, I tend to have more focus and focus regen (via Dire Beast buffs) during Bestial Wrath burst phases. This significantly improves DPS. Second, I have more focus and focus regen available for using Mutli-Shot when AOE can be used. I tested against the last 3 bosses in Antorus, which are largely single target fights, and I could not find a DPS improvement even on those single target fights using WOTC. Therefor, I use and recommend Dire Stable.

One with the Pack vs. Bestial Fury

I am not going to go in depth on this one. One with the Pack is simply better for 1007 reasons. Unless you are using a super high mastery build. Therefor, I use and recommend One with the Pack

A Murder of Crows vs. Volley

A lot of people use AMOC. Unless you have 90+ mastery, this is a mistake (IMHO). Volley does slightly less damage against a single target, but as soon as you add a second target, Volley is the clear winner BY FAR!

I would rather talent Volley and turn it off on a single target fight, than use AMOC. However, I run with Volley on for every fight. Therefor, I use and recommend Volley.

Killer Cobra vs. Aspect of the Beast

This one is perhaps the most difficult to properly assess. High mastery build will likely prefer AOTB, High crit builds will likely prefer KC. KC has proved superior in my testing, but AOTB can be better They are really very close.

What seals the deal for me is that the macro for KC is simply easier to adjust. AOTB doesn’t have Cobra shot limiter like KC does, so it has to be woven into the macro just so. Too much Cobra Shot and you have no Focus, too little Cobra Shot and you have no damage. It is very hard to balance. So I use and recommend Killer Cobra.

Gween

This is an amazing post. Thanks for all your thought out well described reasoning. It has been very helpful for me in specing out my hunter.

I am currently using your ‘AOTBGween’ macro from the post New AOTB Macro (using Qa’Pla Boots) for 7.3.

Is this the current macro you are using? Or can you direct me to or post your current macro?

Thanks!

Frank
Earawen

I would like to know Gween, for the statistics CE a particular cap livel, I am trying to use legendary Anell Osphuz + double talent ring to have both increased damage and proc in more ferocious beasts.

My current iLvL is 957, I am using Insignia of the Grand Army and Sephuz’s Secret for legendaries. Talents are 3131132.

Macro: I recently updated my macro to include turning on volley and using my clicky buffs. It only goes off once per combat, so it not very intrusive.


Sequences['GweenBM'] = {
-- This Sequence was exported from GSE 2.2.03.
  Author="Gweenn@Bleeding Hollow",
  SpecID=253,
  Talents = "3131132",
  Help = [[Press CTRL to activate AOE Mode.  Release CTRL for Single Target Mode.
Press/Hold CTRL for AOE
Press ALT to Heal/Rez pet.
Press SHIFT to Utilize CC/Stuns/Interrupts
Talents - 3131132]],
  Default=1,
  MacroVersions = {
    [1] = {
      StepFunction = "Priority",
      KeyPress={
        "/targetenemy [noharm][dead]",
        "/cast [nopet,nodead] Call Pet 1; [@pet,dead] Heart of the Phoenix",
        "/cast [combat,pet:Spirit Beast,@player] Spirit Mend",
        "/cast [target=focus, exists, nodead],[target=pet, exists, nodead] Misdirection",
        "/cast [combat] Bestial Wrath",
        "/cast [nomod:shift, combat] Blood Fury",
        "/cast [nomod:shift, combat] Aspect of the Wild",
        "/cast [mod:shift] Counter Shot",
        "/cast [mod:shift] Intimidation",
        "/cast [mod:shift, @cursor] Binding Shot",
      },
      PreMacro={
        "/cast !Volley",
        "/cast Lightforged Augment Rune",
        "/cast Repurposed Fel Focuser",
      },
        "/castsequence [mod:alt] Revive Pet;  reset=0.5  Dire Beast, Titan's Thunder",
        "/castsequence [mod:ctrl] Multi-Shot; [nomod:ctrl] Kill Command, Cobra Shot",
      PostMacro={
      },
      KeyRelease={
      },
    },
  },
}

Thanks a lot for the response.

I am not quite at your item level. I’m only at 921, being Guild-less I am doing my best acquiring gear…LOL.

This was working really well for me, it sustains very consistent damage. The only thing I do not use are the modifiers due to the Razer not liking them once the macro is in use.

Thanks again for offering your input to the Hunter community so others can learn!

Frank

Here is the macro without the modifiers:


Sequences['NoModsBM'] = {
-- This Sequence was exported from GSE 2.2.03.
  Author="Gweenn@Bleeding Hollow",
  SpecID=253,
  Talents = "3131132",
  Help = [[Talents - 3131132]],
  Default=1,
  MacroVersions = {
    [1] = {
      StepFunction = "Priority",
      KeyPress={
        "/targetenemy [noharm][dead]",
        "/cast [nopet,nodead] Call Pet 1; [@pet,dead] Heart of the Phoenix",
        "/cast [combat,pet:Spirit Beast,@player] Spirit Mend",
        "/cast [target=focus, exists, nodead],[target=pet, exists, nodead] Misdirection",
        "/cast [combat] Bestial Wrath",
        "/cast [combat] Blood Fury",
        "/cast [combat] Aspect of the Wild",
      },
      PreMacro={
        "/cast !Volley",
        "/startattack",
        "/petautocastoff [group] Growl",
        "/petautocaston [nogroup] Growl",
        "/cast Lightforged Augment Rune",
        "/cast Repurposed Fel Focuser",
      },
        "/castsequence  reset=0.5  Dire Beast, Titan's Thunder",
        "/castsequence Kill Command, Cobra Shot",
      PostMacro={
      },
      KeyRelease={
      },
    },
  },
}

Im still running the AOTB Macro (using Qa’Pla Boots) you made.

Last week i made 95% + logs on most fights with 4x t20 and 2x t21. This week i used it again with 4x t21. Chest + Feet lego and made 99% logs on 5 out of the 11 fights on normal. Only thing i have to do is help it doing burst to use cobra shot. (my cobra shots only cost 28 focus at normal)

Gween, thank you very much for your time.
Still using your macros and try some changes :slight_smile:
2 questions for now…

1)For only Aoe Macro (i am using two macros one St and one AoE) i just need to change “/castsequence Kill Command, Cobra Shot”, to “/cast Multi-Shot”, ?

2)"/targetenemy [noharm][dead]", I am targeting with Tab and this command is making problems some times.
if i still keep clicking macro it will take target a nonagrro mob. Can i replace it with “/petattack [@target,harm]”, ?

Hey Gwen,

when testing your new macro I realized that it won‘t renew Titan‘s Thunder in Boss fights. It only fires it at the beginning.

In addition it hangs from time to time. But maybe thats due to my delay settings in Logitech app. I use 100 ms delay at 25ms world ping.

In my eyes your old macro was stronger. I used the boots macro although i did not have the boots :slight_smile:

Thanks for your fantastic work and the passion you have for helping us. Highly appreciated!

cheers

Hi Gween,
just read that you’re using “Repurposed Fel Focuser”. Is this elixir for us better than the “Flask of the Seventh Demon”?

Once again, a repeat of splendid, clearly defined work… Thanks for all your clarifications and information in this and other areas. They have been a boon to my hunter and I am sure others. Cheers for ya.

Yes.

[quote quote=55748]2)”/targetenemy [noharm][dead]”, I am targeting with Tab and this command is making problems some times.
if i still keep clicking macro it will take target a nonagrro mob. Can i replace it with “/petattack [@target,harm]”, ?[/quote]

Yes. Or alternatively, you can remove it altogether and target manually. I include it because it is more helpful to most of the community to include it and I have learned to adjust my playstyle to this type of targeting in general. I will do manual targeting in addition to the macro, if it switches to the wrong target.

I am not sure why this doesn’t work for you. It works perfectly for me, and I Haven’t heard any other make this complaint.

That said, it is true that TT will be delayed in casting from time to time since it must be able to cast TT within .5 seconds of Dire Beast. Also bear in mind that TT is not on the GVD so it is not limited by that.

Still, it reliably works for me.

I get no hangs and I have similar numbers to you. I don’t think the problem is my macro. BUt I will accept that the macro may not work ‘for you’.

Gween

No, it isn’t better. By I don’t use flasks for world questing or LFRs, I use the Repurposed Fel Focuser for my generic buff. IF I do have a flask going, it doesn’t apply the buff, so there is no downside.

Additionally, the way I have it in the macro, it only attempts to use it once and doesn’t spam it constantly.

Gween

Hi Gween last night I tested the specs again full in RAID Antorus.
Unfortunately I find no hits in any case, I tried zoo build with boots and without, with all sorts of legendary but nothing the DPS does not increase.
I tried to set the stats with the exact cap but nothing.
I put cap haste at 31% critical on 42% and Mastery 66% nothing is not right. I turned spec single pure frenzy full mastery at 112% haste to 26
% and critical to 21% my DPS stood at 1.2 million fixed media. I also tried to set haste to 37% and mastery at 95% giving priority to cap hard of haste, but nothing useless. They are always there more than a million does not go in any case. I tried and tested all the macros that You put on the forum, but it seems osempre to suffer from sudden blocks at certain times.
I’ll give you an example, start RAID and macro go perfectly shoot pure 3 million burst, then always that it blocks to a certain number of rotation, and the DPS descends dizzyly.
That said you could advise me on what to do, I’m seriously thinking about changing class
Could you see to make a macro with full focus always active and maybe with stat specs and specific gear?

i use the new macro w/o boots to Antorus HC last night and the results was over any other…my stats was 50% crit - ~25% haste and 60% mastery.

Really nice idea to put “Titan’s Thunder” right after Dire Beast. You gain at least double dmg cause you ensure that u have minimun two dire beasts.
And sephuz is a must!! i am trying to decide if i ll use Insignia or Prydaz for second legendary

Hi ted you could be more precise about it
DPS You got?
Gear Item Livel?
Legendary you have?
Spec you have?
Stats you have?
It would be a help in deciding to advise who like me continues to be undecided in playing.

To one important thing, I don’t know about you but game with Razer Naga mouse Crhome side buttons with macro on button 1 by pressing manually burst

What is your character name and server? I could look at your logs, build, gear, etc and see if I can find something wrong.

I can assure you that it isn’t a fault with my macro. It works perfectly fine for me and most people that use it. In nearly all the cases where the macro was not running properly, the person had made some modification to the macro which broke it.

Gween

Hello Gween.

You dont use AMOK.

A question about Voley.

Do you Disable Voley in a pure Single Target Raid Boss and why ?
So is like you are with no Tier 6 Talent when you fight a pure ST Boss ?
And if is like that can you explain the reason so i can understand better the theorycraft of the spec.

Thanks

No. Even on Single Target, Volley does nearly the same amount of damage as AMOC, without consuming any GCDs. Overall damage is also increased slightly.

There are 2 exceptions:

1 - You have very high mastery (90+)
2 - You measure a fight shorter than a full minute.

For example on #2, lets say you use AMOC and start a trainign dummy DPS test, AMOC ends and after a full minute it casts again. 20 seconds later (a total of 1 minute 20 seconds) you stop the DPS test and see AMOC does a high amount of damage.

You do the same test with Volley for 1 minute 20 seconds. You see your overall DPS is lower and Volley damage is much lower than AMOC. You have artificially inflated the value of AMOC because you aren’t dividing the 15 seconds worth of damage across the full minute of cooldown. In that test, carried out to 2 minutes, AMOC does NO MORE DAMAGE, but for 40 additional seconds, Volley continues to do damage.

All testing should be to the minute when possible since most cooldowns are some interval of a minute. 4 minute tests are good.

Nope, I use the damage from Volley. What you are probably misinterpreting is that I have said that I would PREFER to talent for Volley and turn it off in Single Target fights than pay the cost of switching back and forth repeatedly.

I don’t HAVE to turn it off because the damage, even on ST is just fine.

Gween