BM Hunter Stat priority

My PAWN strings:


( Pawn: v1: "Gweenn – Beast Mastery AOE)": Class=Hunter, Spec=BeastMastery, Agility=45.62, CritRating=65.90, HasteRating=64.74, MasteryRating=58.88, Versatility=48.15 )
 
( Pawn: v1: "Gweenn – Beast Mastery ST)": Class=Hunter, Spec=BeastMastery, Agility=27.54, CritRating=36.53, HasteRating=36.64, MasteryRating=35.63, Versatility=29.77 )

I’ve done some testing with stats to see where the priority should be. I have long believed that Crit was the most important, followed by Haste at a close second. Mastery back a ways as third best and Vers being the least important.

It should be noted that Agility is also not the most important stat we have. In the past, controlling the amount of Agility was not even possible, because every item (including trinkets and neck pieces) generally had agility on it relative to its iLvL. Now, especially with trinkets, you will often be faced with between trinkets in which one has AGI and the other does not.

I use PAWN to develop my gear strategy. I don’t have the time or the desire to sim every single possible combination of gear, so I like having a quick and easy way to figure out the value between this piece and that piece of gear. This is much harder to do with trinkets that are not stat sticks and instead have some EQUIP or USE bonus. Some are good, some are terrible. Some are situationally great, but perhaps not all the time.

I have 2 PAWN strings above that you might consider using. One is a single target string and the other is an AOE string. The point of having 2 is that, obviously, some fights are single target and some are AOE and some are a combination of single target and AOE. So I have 2 strings that I can use to get a better overall sense if a piece of gear is better and how much better it is for various situations.

Generally speaking for trinkets, I prefer stat sticks. These are trinket that generally just have some combination of AGI, Crit, Haste, Mastery and Versatility on them. It might be AGI and Crit or AGi and Haste, or perhaps several stats.

While some of my best pieces have Versatility on them, I am always looking to decrease Versaility when possible in favor of any stat, and additionally, I am looking to improve my lowest stats. For example, I currently have 46% Crit, 23% Haste, and 70% Mastery. My single target PAWN string favors Haste MORE than Crit. If I had 2 pieces that were exactly equal, except that one had 2000 Haste and 1000 Crit, and the other had 2000 Crit and 1000 Haste, I would use the item with 2000 Haste on it, even if they were shown by PAWN to be within about 1% of each other.

For the sake of simplicity, let me show it this way:

Single Target stat preference:

Haste - 36.64
Crit - 36.53
Mast - 35.63
Vers - 29.77
AGI - 27.54 - Note that AGI is actually the worst stat currently, lower even than Versatility.

AOE stat preferences:

Crit - 65.90
Haste - 64.74
Mast - 58.88
Vers - 48.15
AGI - 45.62 - AGI is still the worst stat

The more targets the higher than value of Crit. But with a single target, Haste is the preferred stat, slightly.

By the way, for those that do not know what the number represent. Each % of a stat equals that much DPS. FOr example, if the PAWN string shows Crit at 65.90, adding one full percentage point of Crit would improve your DPS by 65.90 DPS. This is why the AOE numbers are bigger than the ST numbers.

I should also mention that these numbers reflect the effect on my specific character with the current stats and gear I am wearing right now. The numbers will change as you change gear. But the changes are relatively small and I do an update on my numbers about one a week or so. I also do comparisons with a variety of gear and talent combinations.

I am not a slave to the numbers however, and neither should you be. The simply offer is general guide to help you. The reality is that you and I, both having identical characters wearing the identical gear, buffed identically are going to post different DPS numbers on every fight. How you play, the role of luck (RNG) for procs, and huge number of other factors will all play a part in your total DPS in a particular fight.

There are times in my raid that on a particular BOSS attempt, I might be #1 on the DPS meter. And the next attempt I might be #10. And I could reasonably claim that I played pretty much the same on both attempts. That is simply how it goes. So don’t get so locked into what is ‘best’ that you miss the forest for the trees.

In conclusion, I just want to reiterate that if you want to simply use my numbers, you can. They will be an effective general guide for you. Import both strings and when you compare gear, if both indicate that gear you just got is an upgrade, its a safe bet it is.

Gween

P.S. I know this topic can be confusing, so by all means, if you have any questions, ask away.

Hey Gween those PAWN strings dont seem to be working?

Looked at some others and they have DPS on the end and no closed bracket after the name, could that be the problem?

Examples.

Yours:

( Pawn: v1: “Gweenn – Beast Mastery AOE)”: Class=Hunter, Spec=BeastMastery, Agility=45.62, CritRating=65.90, HasteRating=64.74, MasteryRating=58.88, Versatility=48.15 )

( Pawn: v1: “Gweenn – Beast Mastery ST)”: Class=Hunter, Spec=BeastMastery, Agility=27.54, CritRating=36.53, HasteRating=36.64, MasteryRating=35.63, Versatility=29.77 )

Azortharion:

( Pawn: v1: “Azor-BM-Stomp”: Class=Hunter, Spec=BeastMastery, Agility=34.76, Ap=32.18, CritRating=51.48, HasteRating=45.76, MasteryRating=44.30, Versatility=31.34, Dps=21.34 )

Thanks Macca

The problem is that copying and pasting from here seems to inject some hidden HTML or something that ,messes it up. If I copy it and paste it to NOTEPAD then re-copy and inport, it works. But if I copy straight from the forum post, it gives an error.

Gween

hi gween I have made a will your macros with cap soft haste to 41% and critical above 35% and they are all right a hair.

however I would want to ask you if you could make a macro where the rotation doesn’t temporarily jam as it often happens.
the basic rotation of the hunter bm is kill command+dire cd beast + cobra shot as rimepitivo.
here I would want a macro that allowed me to always give fixed priority to the 2 spells and fixed focus to the cobra shot without blocks.

hi gween I sent you friend request on wow, but did not you see?
I would like as written on the post that you try to create a macro with the specific requests

Hey Gween thanks for taking time to help with this, i have tried what you said in regards to copy & pasting them into a notepad and then re-copy & import into PAWN and still seems to not be working.

It keeps saying…“Pawn doesn’t understand that scale tag. Did you copy the whole tag? Try copying and pasting again.”

Any ideas?

Thanks Macca

These work directly out of notepad:

( Pawn: v1: “Gweenn - Beast Mastery AOE)”: Class=Hunter, Spec=BeastMastery, Agility=45.62, CritRating=65.90, HasteRating=64.74, MasteryRating=58.88, Versatility=48.15 )
( Pawn: v1: “Gweenn - Beast Mastery ST)”: Class=Hunter, Spec=BeastMastery, Agility=27.54, CritRating=36.53, HasteRating=36.64, MasteryRating=35.63, Versatility=29.77 )

I am not sure what you mean by ‘jam’. Also, I am not sure which macro you are referring to. I have written several.

Gween

I get the same error.

I have the PAWN strings saved in notepad. If I copy and paste the strings out of Notepad and import them, they work fine. If I copy and paste the strings to these forums, it looks fine, but it fails to import. If I copy from the forums and paste into Notepad and then copy from notepad and import, it still fails.

I have no idea why. You can however, create a scale manually and insert the numbers as I have them listed.

Gween

Hi Gween,

I love the effort you put in to help the community, I have played around with some of your macros before and had some success doing so, thank you. I do however think that stat weights are highly individual and that there is no point trying to follow someone else’s stat weights (edge cases removed of course).

Simming has become so easy now that everyone who wants to work on their gear optimisation should be doing it. Check out raidbots.io (no more downloading and installing simcraft).

Bag

Edit:

These are the stat weights for the Icy-veins guide writer, myself and Gweenn. If I followed your stat weights and changed my gems from crit to haste I would be losing DPS.

Icy-veins guy:
Crit=51.48
Haste=45.76
Mast=44.30
Vers=31.34

bagbag:
Crit=37.74
Mast=34.50
Haste=32.27
Vers=29.23

gweenn:
Haste=44.44
Mast=40.74
Crit=38.22
Vers=32.28

I both agree and disagree.

While stat weights are individualized for where you are precisely right now, I have taken a different tact. I am not weighting specifically for myself, nor for where my gear is right now. I took a more general approach that I feel is beneficial to the community as a whole.

My efforts are not intended for someone like you who is more familiar with simming and has been, at least it seems likely) doing it for a while, and already has a more properly balanced gear situation.

Instead, I am trying to help those that are not as familiar with how to optimize their characters and have been making major mistakes as a result. When I am helping people that have stats like 18% Crit, 2% Haste, and 107% Mastery, it makes me very sad. They have blindly frog-marched themselves into a narrow and dark corner. They CAN still do ok, but they have far more limited options for doing that. However, they are going to experience some temporary pain trying to re-balance their stats into a more viable paradigm.

If you are blindly following the guide on Icy Veins, you are doing it wrong. If you are blindly following some guy named Gween on the WOW Lazy Macros forum because you like his macros, you are doing it wrong. There is no single authority who is ‘right’, or more ‘right’ than any other way.

I certainly am not claiming to have all the answers for all things, but I do think that my thoughts and opinions are on solid logical and mathematical ground. I believe I am offering good information, even if that information is not situationally ‘best’ for you.

I do appreciate criticism. I do appreciate the ideas of other people, and have often incorporated those ideas into my own and even, in a couple of cases, changes how I did things based on those excellent ideas. For example, a user here named Dammonic (but with funky characters) and I get into a great discussion about how to most effectively use Titan’s Thunder. Although I still think that I was correct in my assertions, I did have to acknowledge that Dammonic’s (sorry for not having the correct…spelling?) method was also correct and perhaps even better. So I changed how I used Titan’s Thunder in my macro’s based on his input and that discussion.

Despite my best efforts for brevity, I do appreciate criticism, as I said. But if you are going to negatively represent my work, at least represent my work and not something that is not what I am suggesting. Specifically, you list my recommended stat weights as:

gweenn:
Haste=44.44
Mast=40.74
Crit=38.22
Vers=32.28

These are not correct. The correct stat weights I suggest are:

Single Multi


Haste=36.64 Haste=64.74
Crit=36.52 Crit=65.90
Mast=35.63 Mast=58.88
Vers=29.77 Vers=48.15

I would also be remiss, if I didn’t at least say something about why these numbers are what they are. There are going to be times when Mastery is your best stat for increasing DPS at any given moment and gear configuration. There may also be times when Haste or Crit are the best stat for increasing DPS at any given moment. Vers should NEVER be the best stat, given the current stat of BM Hunters.

That said, we often cannot control what stats are on an upgraded piece of gear. An upgrade is an upgrade, even if it has terrible stats on it. However, there are going to come times when you have a choice between 2 (or more) items of comparable or equal item level, and you may not be certain which piece is ‘better’ for you.

In such a situation you have 2 viable options. You can choose the piece that is ‘best’ in a vacuum. What I mean by this, is that you ignore all other factors and simply choose the piece that sims highest by only looking at the one slot. For example, lets say you have 2 comparable shoulder pieces. You could say that SHoulder A is better than Shoulder B by some minuscule amount, therefor I will equip Shoulder A.

The alternative is to take a more ‘wholistic’ view. What I mean by this is that you are looking not only at which shoulder you equip, but how that shoulder pieces fares against future upgrades or other slot choices you have.

To give a clear example of what I am talking about let’s say you have 2 shoulders. Shoulder A is a Tier 20 item with 915 iLvL and stats of 1200 Vers and 500 Mastery (making this up). Shoulder B is a non-set piece that is 925 iLVL with stats of 1200 Haste and 500 Crit. Comparing just these two pieces, PAWN might shows that Shoulder B is a 7% upgrade. But if Shoulder A grants you a 4 piece set bonus, it could easily be the ‘better’ piece of equipment that you should wear.

The numbers I offer for stat weights are intended as a path, not as gospel. I believe that we should prioritize Haste for single target generally. It may not always be the ‘best’ stats, but it will always be great and never bad. Additionally, Haste is the most difficult stat to obtain. Crit is a very close second. The different between HAste and Crit in single target is tiny. They are effective equal. For AOE, Crit becomes better. Crit is also easier to obtain that Haste, but more difficult than Mastery.

Of the big 3 stats (Haste, Crit, Mastery), Mastery is the least desirable. This doesn’t mean it is bad. This also doesn’t mean that MAstery can’t be the ‘best’ stat in certain circumstances. However, Mastery is a stat you can’t avoid. Even when you de-prioritize Mastery, you end up with oodles of it on your gear. For this reason, generally speaking, I think it is a mistake to stack Mastery at the expense of Haste and Crit.

Critical Strike is subject to diminishing returns. Haste and Mastery are flat benefits. For example, if you have 110% Critical Strike, that 10% is wasted, because you cannot Crit more than 100% of the time. Worse, any proc or buff that adds to Critical Strike is wasted for the same reason. While there isn’t a cap for Critical Strike, it is simple math that says that Crit is more valuable at lower levels than at higher levels. You get more value from Crit going to 10% to 11% than you do going from 90% to 91%.

Haste and Mastery are flat bonuses. This simply means that each point is just a valuable as every other point you put in these stats. Haste CAN have a soft cap, but you should absolutely ignore this. If you are to a point where you are worrying about various soft cap points for Haste, you definitely do not need any of my advice. Hell, even I don’t pay any attention to them because they are so minor in the scheme of things.

Versatility is the worst stat, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have value. Some of my gear has Vers on it and it is still the best piece I can wear in that particular slot.

What stats are valuable to a particular character is also largely affected by the talents one has chosen. If you have taken a talent configuration that benefits significantly from Mastery (A Murder of Crows, for example) the value of Mastery (to you) will increase. The stat weights I offer presume you are also following my talent choice advice.

I also offer two weight scales. One for single target and one for AOE. Comparing an item against both weight scales might offer additional insight for the overall performance. Having a gear set for single target and another for AOE can be an effective way to manage DPS in a raid. It is easy to swap gear between fights at no cost. While one could swap talents between fights, this incurs a cost that most likely are not willing to pay.

So while my stat weight scales may not be specifically perfect for any particular character at any particular time, I still believe they are a good reference point and guide to a more effective path towards optimizing DPS for many, if not most, people.

Gween

I agree with pretty much everything you wrote.

If you take the top 10 parses on Gorathi Worldbreaker and look at the stat weights of those hunters, they are all different, some even by 15% crit.

I think that simming is so simple and will guarantee better results than guessing. Following someone’s stat weights might be better than guessing but there are too many variables to consider. Lengendaries, talents, set-bonuses, main stats, sec stats, warforging, soft caps. It’s a lot easier and much more accurate to sim. You have certainty of results.

There are however some general truths that I’ve willing to agree on.

This is the BM hunter stat chart from AMR https://ibb.co/hBNmVG

You can infer that:
lots of vers is bad (left of the chart)
lots of mast is good (right of the chart)
haste and crit are somewhat interchangeable (case by case basis)

Chart explanation : http://forums.askmrrobot.com/t/stat-goals-and-graphs/995

You can try and do the math and go hit the dummy for a few hours if that floats your boat.

By contrast, this is all you need to do to sim and be certain you have the best in bags on your hunter (not to mention what you should roll on when people are giving away gear).

1.install:

  • simcraft addon
  • pawn addon
  1. Sim yourself
  1. write down your DPS (this is your maximum potential dps in 1 target + no movement fight)
  • copy your pawn string
  • paste pawn string into /pawn addon
  1. Equip items marked as upgrades

  2. Repeat 2-4 until you have the optimal equipment, your simmed DPS should be higher than before.

Couple things. First, simming isn’t the end all be all. You can sim your character and it can give you results that lead you down the garden path towards mediocrity. In a vacuum, in a snapshot of time, X stat might be better than Y stat. However, what I am suggesting is a more balanced approach. It may, in some cases, not be better right this second, but I believe it will be better once you achieve a more balance stat relationship.

If you have 117% Mastery, simming isn’t going to tell you that dropping it to 70% is more optimal. It will likely tell you to get even more Mastery. Additionally, it will tell you to take talents that are optimal for such an extreme build, but are sub-optimal overall.

I have said numerous times, that my goals are to get Haste in the 20-30% range, Crit in the 40-60% range, and the remainder in Mastery. I try to shoot for something like 25% Haste, 50% Crit, but I will sim once I achieve (which I have) that general vicinity and see where I am for gear.

Second, I am not guessing :slight_smile:

Gween

Since you linked it, let’s see what it says:

“there are relationships between stats that make your DPS go up or down”

“You want a good balance of Crit and Haste”

“If we went with the “traditional” stat weight approach…it would stack [X] way too high”

“What about getting new Stat Weights every time I change gear? This example data shows how that doesn’t always work out either. It can get you “stuck” in a pretty good but not best setup”

“Now if your Crit is really low… if you generated traditional stat weights, there’s a good chance it would tell you Versatility is the best”

“You’re committed to that path, no turning back!”

What I read on this page, seems to completely agree and validate what I am recommending. Despite the info being a little out of date.

Gween

I know, nothing to do with stats but here’s a question. If you have all the possible legendaries which are the best two for beastmaster ?

This is a common question. This is also a terrible question.

‘Best’ is dependent on several factors. I will give you a couple of obvious examples:

1 - You have an 850 Neck. All other pieces are 950 or higher. In this case the legendary neck is ‘best’ because it represents the largest upgrade relative to your gear.

2 - You insist on spec’ing Aspect of the Beast instead of Killer Cobra. In this case, the legendary boots increase significantly in value, because of the synergy of the boots and this talent. With Killer Cobra, the boots are effectively wasted, since the cooldown reduction for Kill Command is irrelevant.

3 - You are on a fight which presents a reliable opportunity to perform an interrupt every 30-40 seconds. Sephuz’s Secret becomes extremely valuable in this case, as compared to a fight in which you cannot invoke the 25% haste buff.

In a vacuum, I rate the legendaries as follows (from best to worst):

Sephuz’s Secret
Prydaz
Insignia pf the Grand Army
Parsel’s Tongue
Roar of Seven Lions
Roots of Shaladrassil
Soul of the Huntsmaster
Mantle of Command
Voodoo Mask
Call of the Wild
Apex Predator’s Claw
Qa’Pla
Kil’Jaeden’s Burning Wish

On my alts, I most common run with the neck and the legs with the helm as backup. I prioritize survivability in pugs and LFRs above min/max DPS. Many of these legendaries are so close as to be nearly equal, and it comes down to what is best for you given your gear and the specific boss you are fighting.

On my main, I am currently running with Sephuz’s Secret and Insignia of the Grand Army. I have a 975 neck and my rings are my lowest iLvL pieces at 935 and 930 respectively. So not only are the 2 legendary rings great, they are also the biggest upgrades relative to my current gear. If I got some perfect Mythic Titanforged ring I would most likely go with a different legendary. I will cross that bridge when I come to it.

Gween

Couple things. First, simming isn’t the end all be all. You can sim your character and it can give you results that lead you down the garden path towards mediocrity. In a vacuum, in a snapshot of time, X stat might be better than Y stat.

Just don’t vendor everything you don’t need at the moment and you can always change pieces when better rounded pieces drop.

However, what I am suggesting is a more balanced approach. It may, in some cases, not be better right this second, but I believe it will be better once you achieve a more balance stat relationship.

Go for better right this second = be better right this second. Keep simming and if a change comes, it comes. There is no point in being mediocre while waiting for drops that fit someone else’s gear.

If you have 117% Mastery, simming isn’t going to tell you that dropping it to 70% is more optimal. It will likely tell you to get even more Mastery.

I’m not convinced it will. I got myself up to 104% mastery and that was not the result.

Additionally, it will tell you to take talents that are optimal for such an extreme build, but are sub-optimal overall.

You can sim your talents.

You have convinced me (to some degree) that aiming for “balanced” stat weights is better than blindly equipping ilvl upgrades. You are very unlikely to convince me that you’ve outsmarted the algorithm.

I’d invite anyone reading this to try both and test the results. Go with Gween’s stat weights and get your own.

I’d bet a lot of money specific weights are going to come out on top 100% of the time.

Bag

Gweenn, thank you for such a great guide/guidance.

I found by replacing the original “quotation marks” with the standard notepad fonts “quotation marks” the string will work in pawn. In addition, I put them in the black box to for easy copying.


( Pawn: v1: "Gweenn – Beast Mastery AOE)": Class=Hunter, Spec=BeastMastery, Agility=45.62, CritRating=65.90, HasteRating=64.74, MasteryRating=58.88, Versatility=48.15 )

( Pawn: v1: "Gweenn – Beast Mastery ST)": Class=Hunter, Spec=BeastMastery, Agility=27.54, CritRating=36.53, HasteRating=36.64, MasteryRating=35.63, Versatility=29.77 )

Thanks again Gweenn

I updated my original post with your fix. Thanks!

Gween

gween… no tier pieces anymore?