General WW Talents Discussion [NO PVP/NO MACRO JUST TALENTS TALK]


Looking at most Macros, they seems to be a GENERAL USE, aka not specifying when to use what, for instance you don’t want to use a SINGLE target build when you could use cleave instead, or even worse use an AOE build, so lets look at the main diffrences in talent builds depending if we go AoE VS Single Target.

Pure AoE uses Bonedust Brew, while ST uses Feline Stomp

Now For ST, I propose, since Skyreach can be horrible if it just fires off, I will never suggest that any macro uses that :smiley: so these are the talents that we should use for that, out of the box we can also see that we won’t ever use Spinning Crane Kick really, since we don’t have Dance of the Chi-Ji

This build should only be used on pure ST bosses


Next we take a look at the AoE Build (5+ Targets):

We get Spinning Crane Kick into the build, and Bonedust Brew (1Min CD) The main differances between ST and AoE is that we only use Blackout Kick to not overcap Teachings of the Monastry, so we probably want that on a low repeat or mod key.


Lastly, lets look at the General Cleave Build that we should be using most of the time, and that should be working well for 99% of the time:

If we look at this, and the prio listing we can see that, if follows the same kind of dealings that both the ST and the AoE build, and that makes sense, now it also uses Chi Burst (Lowest Prio)

And otherwise follows the prio lists of both kinda, so making a Macro doing All 3 is probably doable if maybe a little hard, but using 2 macros that could work for all 3 builds are probably doable (ST and AoE)


If the mods don’t want a topic like this I can understand that, but otherwise lets talk down below about the current Macros that we got access to from the diffrent creators

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Starting with the Excellent Moons Macro we can see that he is grabbing Crane Vortex x 2 instead of Meridian Strikes (Reduce ToD CD) and Spiritual Focus (Reduce SEF CD)

Now, swapping these around shouldn’t change his macro at all, since we aren’t adding anything or removing anything, just hopefully getting more ToD an SEF in the overall fight, the general page is similar enought that it doesn’t matter, now I’ll do a run of a few mins on a solo target dummy and lets see how many times it breaks the hit combo :smiley:

So instead of running for a set time, I spent time dealing damage 10mil as the baseline, and during this time it broke it 11 times, the offenders being Tiger Palm and Blackout Kick, it didn’t hang up at any time, and I’d say that for most people this is a great Macro 9/10 in fluidity!

Next up is Looking at Elfyau’s and seeing that the talents are missing statue, but that it doesn’t have any added stuff, it might work, but lets try it with the General Cleave build, 9 Times, Tiger Palm being the only spell being cast in a row, I’d give this the same rating 9/10!

Lastly we have usmcguy’s BE LIKE WATER, and we can see that for this one we would have to remove Vivify, Whirling Dragon Punch and Rushing Jade Wind from the macro since we don’t use it, but we do need to add Strike of the Windlord to it (Lets be fair here, his macro is a general useage one so no fault with talents, just for our tests we need to check vs the same build), lets see how this works, 10 Mil damage test!
So changing it for that it deals a bit lower damage, but it only did 2 repeats (Tiger Palm)! This is really good @usmcguy Amazing work 10/10

So for anyone just needing a macro for whatever, Any of these works! @Moonsorow is probably the most optimized when it comes to following the best spell to use, or that might just be biased @Elfyau should focus on another class since he does every class and his current one works fine!

To all 3 creators of the amazing Macros, from the bottom of my heart, Thank you ALL


The only thing you need to optimize Talents and not guess or rely on “FeelyCraft” is Raidbots. That’s it. Nothing else. Ever.

And it takes, what, a minute or two? And it’s free and the most reliable.
All the Therocrafters on WoWHead and Icy Veins use it. How may times times have you heard them say:" Bestest reSults froM Dr. AskARobot"? You won’t so just stop. It’s cancer in a bottle. (And don’t get me started on Pawn and “stats”.)

Since I found out about the new Talent setup in DF I decided to approach making my macros a bit different this time around as a test. I simmed my Talents first then made my macros based on the results.

I main a BM Hunter so our “stat” is Haste and that will affect our rotation if we acquire it in large chunks and my macros along with Tier sets, too.

I’ll delve more seriously in fine tuning my Single and AoE macros when I get the two and four piece sets and stick with just basic ones for now.

And saying “X’s” macro compared to “Y’s” macro is redundant as all macros will perform differently Character to Character, person to person. Why? Because the author that makes macros are making them based on their playstyle, “stats”, knowledge of the Class, knowledge of how to use GSE, knowledge on HOW TO PROPERLY SET YOUR MS (which MOST people here just cannot grasp).

I could go on and on but most of this is covered on my Guide I wrote here and it’ll be updated if my Talents first then macro theory works out.


First off, I’d like for people to not assume that I don’t use Raidbots

Secondly, what I used was the recommended build minus the skill I could see being the most problematic one in my tests, namely Skyreach (cause forced movments can and will kill people) even if it sims for apox 1k higher than not using it, secondly it doesn’t change anything in the rotation itself, just changes how much abilities hit for,

Now I don’t know you so I don’t know how much you know about windwalkers but doing 2 abilities in a row is bad, a big nono, since if we don’t take into account hit combo that needs to be built up, doing 2 abilities in a row is mastery% damage less on the second one, that’s the only reason I did compare them, and it’s funny that you talk about the speed, since I’ve done them at diffrent speeds before and I’ve found that 150ms with my setup works the best (yes even better than the 250 the some recommends)

My testing was based around how well they could maintain HIT COMBO, not in one of them did I say, oh this one does the most damage, no I just did 10m damage to have a good baseline.

I would like to thank you tough for pointing out some old concepts that people really should stop trying to worry about (stats and Pawn strings) and that people really need to start simming for themselfs, Now if anything, it would be nice if makers of macros, would give a rought estimate of their stat values and tier pieces, so that fully fresh noobs can figure out what small if any issues there might be, cause Haste will greatly affect how your spec plays

Overall I’d like to say thank you for taking the intresst in this and to reply a well thought out reply

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Also regarding the earlier builds it seems that:

is the build for everything that isn’t PURE ST (so M+)


while this one is the best for pure ST, in terms of just raw numbers


Your welcome mate! I’m glad I can help and provide something that is worthy that people like to use. While there are still more ways to optimize the macro, over time and with better gear there might need to be some subtle changes here and there.

I do wish we can use RJW and WDP again, as those helped the rotation be smoother and also gave us more energy, I’m sure these spells will be buffed in future patches, and if so it might make the most sense to switch back to those talents.

I do agree with this statement.

Ask Mr. Robot is a terrible tool, and is no longer needed, Icy Veins does a much better job at this and the data is simplified so that it’s easy to understand. While AMR was good during the days that we had to reforge gear, since reforging is gone, AMR is no longer a tool that is needed.

Raidbots is very accurate, for the raiding environment, but not so much for dungeons and M+. This is where SimCraft becomes a better tool, to see what you should be OVERALL in a dungeon. Seeing bosses change more in M+ than raids, sometimes you have to get out of stuff, or move out of the way otherwise you’ll kill a group, there are a lot of intricacies in M+ where in LFR they are not there (or normal either)

In regards to stats, where Blizzard went a bit nuts this time around is in haste making it a mandatory secondary stat for most classes that use energy or a type of energy like Rogues, Druids, Monks, and Hunters. Compare that to a class like Warriors who do not have an energy system and are nearly always at the full range of rage, the DPS is much smoother and works better because there is no dependence on a secondary stat to make DPS numbers look better. This is a crutch from Blizzard, and honestly bad class design. It doesn’t matter how the talent system is, the biggest issue is that Blizzard had no idea on how to actually design classes anymore, let’s be honest Ion is an idiot. And that comes from working with the guy for years. I’m excited that Metzen came back, give it about a year and WoW will be back to form as it should be.

There are numerous class problems if you look at them carefully. MM Hunters for example are doing 80-150k Aimed Shots, yet a Fire Mage’s Pyro can only do 40k with 400 item level gear. This isn’t fair to these classes but it’s not just letting nerf Outlaw Rogues by having them rely on haste, instead of Mastery and Crit like it was in Shadowlands. On that note, let’s nerf Enh Shammies and Monks too because of a broken mechanic that Blizzard implemented with haste. Hmm whose fault is this, not the player, but what does Blizzard do, punish the player?

The biggest problem with Dragonflight, is that players are being punished for playing a class or spec they want, and WW was the one spec that I thought would be the best for me, and wow I’m finding that wrong in harder content. While different, but the first 3 LFR bosses are not melee friendly at all, they are dedicated range fights, which sucks because if I remember right in SL and prior, it didn’t matter if you brought range or melee to a fight it was balanced. Not in DF. #blameIon

As for MS, I think the issue here is that people here are not willing to go to the store and fork over $50-$60 for a keyboard that can help them out. If they want to really use these macros well, seriously go to the store and buy a keyboard. Don’t use stupid sh** like AHK. You’re just asking to get banned, and then you’ll complain here that the macros got you banned. I’ve said it many times, as a developer, programmer, and IT guy, Stop Using AHK!!! - If you can’t afford a gaming keyboard with macro keys, then there is a bigger issue at work, and while I’m not going to get political, if you live in the USA if you can afford WoW you should be able to afford a good PC, and that means a good gaming keyboard. Sorry for being blunt, but yes working for your money helps.

I’ll continue to help as best I can, there are specs I do not play, just because I find them boring or not interesting. I used to love Assis but now Blizzard’s changes do not favor DoT classes very much so I don’t play them as much as I would like.

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I only PVP so when I write my macros, I only put the main dps rotation in the macro, any thing additional that would come from talents, unless I know it wont be changed going from say 2v2 to Random BG’s, I might add that into the macro as well just because I can be lazy. Any other skills and such, I use on keybinds on build in macros.

Personally, Out of hundreds and hundreds of hours reworking macros during matches, while questing, whatever, I’ve found that shorter, less clunky macros work the best.

  • If it looks right, here is an example:* (Below would be one simple macro)

Block Type Action:

  • Tiger Palm

Block Type Loop: (Sequential 2) Priority can be too random so I never use it

  • Rising Sun Kick
  • Blackout Kick
  • Fists of Fury
    = ETC, Etc.

I’ve also noticed, that adding or removing a Block Type Action, can change the whole rotation of your DPS. So I start with a basic macro and add in skills until the ones I want hitting the hardest are on top of the dps meter.

All in all, This allows me to change talents on the fly depending on what arena I’m entering without having to mess with the macro. I use to use various macros for each, but forgetting to add skills, change to other macro etc, just became a headache. I find I get the best DPS when I control the CD’s, and just let the macro work for the dps rotation.

Just my thoughts,